<Thalin> Morning all ...
* Thalin drags in a slacker.
* anna{I} (xxxchat@xchat-1EC40653.cable.virginm.net) has joined
* Thalin whistles.
<Thalin> Ahh there she is.
* anna{I} smiles Hello Master Thalin.
<anna{I}> has been many many a year since this one has served paga
*malesub joined 
* anna{I} watches curious
<malesub> may a boy enter?
<Thalin> Sure.
<anna{I}> Hello malesub :)
 <malesub> Thank you Sir, how are you?
 <malesub> heya anna{I}

Meaning of Life
 

<anna{I}>  Philisophical question!
<Thalin> Shoot
* anna{I} looks it up
<Thalin> You in the front row.
<anna{I}> In one word, describe the meaning of life...just one word (for the sake of this question).
<Thalin> Journey.
<Thalin> I never liked that term .. seemed too cliche.   However, as I get older ... I respect that description more and more and lost my angst about it being cliche.
* anna{I} would say the one word to describe the purpose of life is "Love".
<Thalin> Are meaning and purpose synonyms to you?
* anna{I} thinks
<Thalin> Meaning to me would be the definition so to speak ... and purpose would be the driving force.
<anna{I}> Oh, I see, I used them interchangeably
 <malesub> isn't that more a Syntax question Sir?
<Thalin> Like the meaning of a box is an item which has sides typically with one opening that can be closed ... many sizes and shapes and many materials with the function for carrying and item or items.
<Thalin> But the purpose of the box is to make life easier in the transportation of items for a person.
<Thalin> The meaning overlaps with, and might even always contain the purpose.
<Thalin> malesub, syntax is highly important in discussions.   If the fundamental word choice is misunderstood ... then you might see two people argue their positions for hours like baffoons.  I try not to be a baffon because of a definition mix up.
* anna{I} agrees and corrects her last statement
<Thalin> People seem to be condescending with the phrase, "That's just semantics."   Sometimes people use semantical differences to push a point.   But when the difference in understanding is the crux of the problem it needs to be offered clarity.
<anna{I}> the meaning of life is (well, yeah journey probably best describes it but she can't say the same thing as Master Thalin) the meaning is Growth, the purpose is Love :)
<Thalin> I could get behind one word purpose to life being Love.
<anna{I}> Expanding our understanding so that we can love properly :P

Thalin and malesub on lying
 

*malesub nods, is just going to shut up and be a proper foot rest now
<Thalin> Why would you shut up?
 <malesub> A bit over my head Sir, least this time of night
* anna{I} doubts that malesub....
* anna{I} pokes malesub gently, not allowing him to cop out
 <malesub> Do I have to? D:
<Thalin> So how about an example to clear it up malesub ...   Ex:   Two people have a different understanding of what ownership is, they define and choose one defition for an upcoming discussion.  That is offering clarity.    Semantical bullshit is using different defintions afterward as a defense mechanism to will what you want.
 *malesub nods
<Thalin> Does that make more sense malesub?
 <malesub> Yes Sir
<anna{I}> Master Thalin looooooves to teach so asking questions when you don't understand is not a bad thing (intelligent questions)
 <malesub> Permission to just be a dumb foot slave tonight though? :P
<Thalin> Like, I also split up lying into two categories.  I think that it is our obligation to understand why we think what we do so we can examine it through life when the why behind a thought is challenged by new information.   Lying .. I believe the why behind it can be summed to two dichotomized concepts.  One purpose is to gain advantage over another intentionally.  The second is as a defense mechanism to escape scrutiny.
* Thalin shrugs..  
* anna{I} is very bad at lying...actually...*considers if that's tre*
<anna{I}> *true
 <malesub> Well theres also the concept of lying for protection
* anna{I} lies a LOT when in the workplace
<anna{I}> and it's not for advantage but it is most certainly a defense mechanism (which would qualify as being done for protection)
<Thalin> I seperate the two for very good reason.  I always treat the defense mechanism as if they did not lie, and forgive them instantly.  I attack the root cause of the shame, and clear it up so our relationship can be more open and growth may happen more easily.   There should be a better sense of trust.   The act of lying willfully I attack in a much different way ;)
<Thalin> malesub, protection would be classified in the defense mechanism.
 *malesub nods, notes to never lie to Master Thalin
 <malesub> ah right, sorry
<Thalin> If you do, own up to it.
<Thalin> Because if I find out.  And we had become friends, holy hell you don't want that conversation.
<Thalin> If I offer one.
* anna{I} grins
 <malesub> Yes Sir
<Thalin> Ok, so I laid it all out.   Tear it apart if you want, or someone can pick the next topic.

 

Foot slave & value
 

<Thalin> Also, what the fuck is a foot slave again?
<Thalin> lol .. I forget all the definitions ... speaking of clarifying defitions.
* Thalin is fucking getting old.
 <malesub> Foot rubs, being a foot rest, cleaning footwear, kissing feet/footwear etc etc
<Thalin> Yeah, well might not be anything here for you in that vein, tonight.
<Thalin> Since its just me and anna.
<Thalin> But you're welcome to join in discussions.
 *malesub nods "Well let me know if you need a foot rest Sir"
<Thalin> I can tell you now, I won't.
<Thalin> Ever.
<Thalin> In the history of time.
<Thalin> And the future of my life.
<Thalin> It will never be the fact I speak the words, "Boy, I need an ottoman ... bring me your back."
<Thalin> Ok, on to a new topic.
<anna{I}> Ooo! *jumps up and down excitedly*
<anna{I}> Although, it pertains to current discussion
<Thalin> Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter.
<Thalin> Shoot.
<anna{I}> It's a question of "value" (Might need to agree on a definition - unsure) And adding value
<Thalin> Absolute value, or relational value?
<Thalin> Like, I believe all human beings have equal absolute value.   I can even love someone for a very valid (in my mind) path in life that I want no part of and they have negative relational value to me.
* anna{I} doesn't know!!
<Thalin> It helps me comprehend the value in the scope of my life, without diminishing them as a human being in my mind.
 malesub quit: Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org
<anna{I}> aww
<Thalin> Forces me to think ... of compatibility, not worthiness in a person.
* anna{I} was hoping to help malesub a bit...
<Thalin> I'm sure there will be another time.
<anna{I}> So I get stuck on this idea of "adding value" all the time. I use that term constantly in multiple aspects in my life. I want, nay MUST add value somehow...
<Thalin> I tried to include him in discussion, and even tried to ask him about him.  I just wanted to express that asking me for my use of him would be wasting his time.   Some people keep notes.
<Thalin> Do you know why?
* Thalin grins.
<anna{I}> yes, and I watched that exchange which is why I have this question rolling around
<anna{I}> He only offered what he wanted
<anna{I}> it was for his fullfillment, not Yours
<Thalin> Do you know why you want to offer value?
<anna{I}> do I know why...*thinks*
<Thalin> lol
<anna{I}> I think I do but let's see if I can articulate it even halfway...
* Thalin is patient.
<anna{I}> I feel that it's part of my journey I suppose. Part of loving others. If I can add value to their life, it in turn adds value to mine
<anna{I}> but I get confused if what I want to offer is not what is desired. So then, am I offering for myself or for the other?! And that's where my question of adding value comes from. Let's speak specifically in slave terms for now because that's harder for me to navigate than say, adding value at work.
<anna{I}> So malesub, wanted to offer something of himself
<anna{I}> which initially is a perfectly valid thing to offer
<anna{I}> but
<anna{I}> at the point that it was requested he participate in conversation instead...
<anna{I}> he no longer wished to offer value because why?
<anna{I}> leaving was a perfectly acceptable response to nobody wanting what he was offering but wouldn't someone that truly serves...have adjusted?
<anna{I}> if possible?
<anna{I}> so...a few questions in there I guess...
* Thalin grins.
* anna{I} smiles
<anna{I}> a bit...haphazzard...sorry about that
<Thalin> OK .. so there are two theories I'd like to tie together to help clarify your confusion.

 

 

     ----  Sub topic of belonging ----

<Thalin> One is the theory of belonging that I have.
<Thalin> To truly belong to a group / relationship two things need to be believed.  That you offer value to it, and receive value from  it.
<Thalin> If you believe that you offer value but do not receive value, you feel that you are of use.   Some spin offs (not an exhaustive list) very low self esteem and sense of worthlessness so this is acceptable to that person, or perhaps a feeling of being used and it's not acceptable.
* anna{I} picks her jaw up off the floor
<Thalin> If you receive value and do not feel you offer value.   Then some spin offs are a feeling of authority, or superiority and this is acceptable, or again a feeling of low self esteem but this time it is acceptable as you may feel you are in a mentorish relationship.
<Thalin> When you feel that you offer value and receive value that is the only way you can truly feel that you have a sense of belonging.  In the true sense of it all.
<anna{I}> this is why I like going to work so much...it's the only place where I offer value and receive value
<Thalin> Those other variations where it is "acceptable"  are usually something along the lines of .. "well this will work for now."
<Thalin> Why you jaw dropping?
<anna{I}> insight
<Thalin> Awesome, I have value ;)
* anna{I} laughs! Aye!

 

     ----  Sub topic of compatibility ----
<Thalin> The next component aside from belonging is compatibility.
<Thalin> No relationship is perfectly compatible.   However, there should be enough compatibility where the differences which turn into angst are easily resolved because of the willingness to keep a high quality of peace, love, and life with you and the person/group.
<Thalin> High incompatibilities ... be them many, or one deeply moral issue are those which will allow you to feel a sense of belonging and incompatibility.
<anna{I}> Well that's different to the question of value though isn't it? I mean or no...does it then become difficult to add value if you're
incompatible?
<Thalin> malesub left because I offerend him no value for his expressions of submissive tendencies, and he didn't feel compatible at a decent level.
<Thalin> That's a good quesiton.
<anna{I}> Yes, but...
<anna{I}> when we only offer what we want, instead of what others want...is that...
<Thalin> I think that in the definition of the relationship it is certainly an influence to value if the compatibility is high.

     ---- Sub topic of Submission vs Service ----
<Thalin> You are confusing the concepts of submission and service.
<anna{I}> always have
<anna{I}> sorry about that :)
* anna{I} struggles with that constantly.
<Thalin> You are with 99% of the people I speak to.
<Thalin> Submission: to yield.
<anna{I}> So he should have yielded to your request to join the conversation?
<Thalin> Service:  To subject yourself to another persons will, and desires.
<Thalin> Service may require submission.
<Thalin> Not necessarily.
<Thalin> Here's why..
<Thalin> If I like my shoes taken off by you, and you know it and love doing it for me ... then when I come home and sit down and you run over and do this without my request.   That is not submission.
<anna{I}> Nope :)
<anna{I}> I mean, yes I agree
<Thalin> That is being aware, and offering value in a service expression.
<anna{I}> Okay, I'm with you so far
<Thalin> Now if you hated it, and had a thing against feet but you did anyway ... you would be yielding against your deisre ... submitting.
* anna{I} grumbles
* anna{I} is shit at submitting.
<Thalin> My belief is that if you are in a situation where you have to submit so often or with something so greatly moral to yourself, then you are not at peace with yourself ... and that is not a healthy relationship.
<anna{I}> that makes sense
<Thalin> I believe that M/s relationships which are healthy have a good balance of yielding against your will which is compatible between the two people.
<Thalin> Happens as often as both enjoy in the relaitonship and with topics which both are comfortable.  However, a great relationship in the idea of M/s is that there is also growth for the slave against her comfort in a positive direction for her life/self expression.
* anna{I} smiles...that just described any healthy relationship ;)
<Thalin> Should he have submitted to offering something different and forced himself through submission into an incompatible service where he would find no sense of belonging?
<Thalin> I do not believe that is the case.

<anna{I}> Ah!

<anna{I}> And why not? 

<Thalin> Had he been owned, and asked ... I believe it is his obligation to if his owner demands that of him.

<Thalin> First, he is not owned ;)

<Thalin> I only see slaves as being those owned.

<Thalin> See how it all ties in together nicely?

<Thalin> ;)

<anna{I}> so this is where what we've been discussing starts to break down for me...in the context of Gor

<Thalin> When you think about things in the right way ... it all becomes clear.

<anna{I}> right, so what was he?

 

Thalin & anna Submissive Tendencies vs Slavery

<anna{I}> a submissive? But he then did not submit

<Thalin> Well the Gorean community have so much shit fucked up on the fundamentals that the extensions of those conflict with logic.<Thalin> You are a highly fucking logical bitch.
* anna{I} laughs
<Thalin> Submissive tendencies.
* anna{I} is accused of being a robot from time to time
<Thalin> Not a robot which obeys and submits each moment that another's will opposes theirs.
<anna{I}> no a robot in my logic
<Thalin> If you needed to obey everything, and yield every time ...then why would it matter which bitch I selected?
<anna{I}> if it doesn't make sense I'll question until others are sick of it
<Thalin> You have a beautiful mind.
* anna{I} fidgets
<Thalin> I have no problem with you pounding me with questions.
* anna{I} smiles and knows which is why she does it :)
<Thalin> I'm confident I can answer whatever you think up wench.
* anna{I} laughs and nods in agreement
<Thalin> And once in a while I'll pound you back ;)
* anna{I} grins
<Thalin> So far so good tonight on thoughts, or have I lost you in a whirlwind of complexing and conflicting thoughts?
<anna{I}> oh no...so far so good....
<Thalin> Help with clarity?
<anna{I}> not yet
<Thalin> lol
<anna{I}> because I'm processing :) Part of my robot nature ;)
<Thalin> Application is a bitch eh?
<anna{I}> aye
<Thalin> You are taking the knowledge and trying to pass real life instances through the filter to see how it sifts.
<Thalin> And it's not easy yet.
<anna{I}> pretty much
<Thalin> Like practing math problems.
* anna{I} filters evvvverything
<Thalin> How could you not?
<Thalin> anna thank you for being the recipient of my ramblings.
<Thalin> You're a good egg.
* anna{I} grins Thank You for the conversation, insight and fun. :)
<anna{I}> permission to go?
<Thalin> One quick question bitch.
<anna{I}> Aye?
<Thalin> I am going to post this conversation .. or parts.   Would you prefer I remove your name and use <someNastyWench> or something ... or your
name is fine?
<anna{I}> my name is fine
* Thalin nods.   Thank you.
<anna{I}> :)